cedar fire facts

Cedar chips repel certain ants, making the chips a valuable addition to garden beds and other landscaping. [9] However, a study conducted by the Forest Service concluded that even if the helicopter had been able to drop multiple loads of water with direct hits on the flames, the impact on the fire would have been minimal. Pockets of these cedar oils will cause pops and spits of fire sparks and embers, making it quite dangerous for use in an open, inside fireplace. The Woolsey fire cost over $4.2 billion. [18], San Diego's Qualcomm Stadium was used as an evacuation site, forcing the NFL to move the Monday Night Football game on October 27 between the San Diego Chargers and Miami Dolphins to Sun Devil Stadium in Tempe, Arizona. Within ten minutes of the initial report, the U.S. Forest Service had deployed 10 fire engines, two water tenders, two hand crews and two chief officers. A dozen simultaneous wildfires in October 2003; the Cedar Fire is the group of large red dots right of center. [10] By 3:00 AM, 62,000 acres (250 km2) had burned. [24], There were a number of controversies associated with the Cedar Fire, resulting in investigations lasting several years. [26], Both the media and local elected officials were also critical of the lack of use of military aviation assets located nearby at Camp Pendleton and Miramar. In 1972, vandals set fire to and destroyed a 240 feet tall and over 800 years old western red cedar in Cathedral Groove on Vancouver Island. A report, the 2003 San Diego County Fire Siege Fire Safety Review,[26] prepared in the wake of the fire and presented to the Governor's Blue Ribbon Fire Commission, criticized the overall response. [33] Engineer Steven Rucker sustained fatal injuries, while the three other members of the crew were able to take shelter in a house. The distilled oil of the red cedar has been officially listed as a reagent in the U.S Pharmacopoeia since 1916. [2] Hotspots continued to burn within the Cedar Fire's perimeter until December 5, 2003, when the fire was fully brought under control. According to CALFIRE, it is also the fifth deadliest and fourth-most destructive wildfire in state history,[5][6] causing just over $1.3 billion in damages. [14] Of those killed, 13 died in the first 24 hours of the fire. The U.S. Marine Corps operates CH-46 Sea Knight and CH-53 Sea Stallion helicopters that can carry water-dropping buckets, but existing policies prohibited their use until all other civilian resources were used. When the helicopter was only minutes away from the fire, a Forest Service fire chief cancelled the water drop because policy required the cutoff of aerial firefighting 30 minutes before sunset. Deodar Cedar is an evergreen coniferous large tree of impressive habit. Here the sperm fertilizes an egg cell and a seed is subsequently created. [15], On October 29, a group of firefighters attempting to defend a house in Riverwood Estates, near Santa Ysabel, became entrapped and overrun by the fire. The name is a misnomer. One of the more interesting is an animation of the spread of the fire which was initially pushed by very strong Santa Ana winds blowing from the northeast and east. Eastern red-cedar (Juniperus vir-giniana) is a native evergreen tree. Interesting Facts For numerous Native American Tribes, the red cedar tree symbolizes the tree of life and is burned in sweat lodges and in purification rites. The federal government has an aviation assets "cutoff" policy which stated that "aircraft (planes or helicopters) may not be dispatched so as to arrive at an incident no later than 30 minutes before sunset". There are four species of cedar trees in the genus Cedrus, belonging to the pine ( Pinaceae) family. All cedars are large coniferous evergreen trees. At the time it began, at least eleven other wildfires were actively burning in Southern California. Cedar trees are large evergreen conifers that have needle-like leaves that are arranged spirally on scented woody branches. The fire started around 4:35 p.m. Tuesday in the Green Horn Mountains above Wofford Heights and Lake Isabella. Cedar shakes can be a poor choice in humid climates which can cause the shingles to age prematurely. The entire community of Cuyamaca, most of nearby Cuyamaca Rancho State Park, and more than 500 homes surrounding the town of Julian were destroyed. [21] Martinez initially told investigators that he had fired a shot from his rifle to draw attention and that the shot had caused the fire,[22] but he later recanted and admitted he started the fire intentionally to signal rescuers. [9] A San Diego County Sheriff's Department ASTREA helicopter that was rescuing a hunter spotted the fire at about the same time as the first phone report was received and called for an air response. [30] A survivor, Rudy Reyes, was burned over approximately 70 percent of his body. At approximately 01:00 UTC on October 23 (6:00 PM PDT on October 22), fire broke out near Wildcat Canyon to the south of Barona, where many houses were destroyed and lives lost in the Cedar Fire. There are three methods to control or kill cedars: fire, mechanical and chemical. Cedars grow at high altitudes and thrive in full sun and well-draining soil. The blaze has surpassed the size of the Cedar Fire near San Diego, which destroyed 273,246 acres in 2003, according to the California Department of Forestry and Fire … cedar is more severely damaged by fire than any of its associates. Scrub and saplings mingle with 15 to 20 foot oak trees which shot up since the fire. In some spots, such as Fern Flat, charred stumps are surrounded by what Puzzo called a “monoculture” of ceanothus. genus and are not native to this country. One of the infernos, named the Cedar Fire, burned through San Diego County in the final days of October 2003 after a lost hiker ignited a small fire to alert rescuers. Another firefighter sustained severe injuries, and two others were hurt. the largest fire in the history of California, the Cedar Fire, that started 10 years ago this month, on October 25, 2003. Facts About Cedar Trees There are many types of cedar trees. [2][3] The fire's rapid growth was driven by the Santa Ana winds, causing the fire to spread at a rate of 3,600 acres (15 km2) per hour. Click here. Residents of Wildcat Canyon and Muth Valley were ordered to evacuate, and the road was closed. Several miles away, in a meadow near Los Vaqueros, some large pines survived, and new ones are cropping up. FIRE ECOLOGY OR ADAPTATIONS : Western redcedar fire resistance is low to moderate []. [8], The Cedar Fire began in the Cuyamaca Mountains within the Cleveland National Forest. For other fires with the same name, see. Some is dead, but a lot is still alive.”. The report stated that though the fire conditions and severity should have been expected, the responsible agencies were not properly prepared when the fire broke out, and radio communications problems exacerbated the problem. The fire's rapid growth was driven by the Santa Ana winds, causing the fire to spread at a rate of 3,600 acres (15 km ) per hour. Its thin bark, shallow root system, low dense branching habit, and highly flammable foliage make it susceptible to fire damage [ 21 , 59 ]. At the time that the Cedar Fire started, there were already 11 other fires burning in the region. 2016 Fire Season In 2016, over 6,900 fires burned an area of over 669,000 acres across California, Climatologists had predicted an extreme version of El Niño, known as a Super El Niño, to occur during the winter of 2015–16. The San Diego Union-Tribune has an article that examines how the vegetation is recovering from the 2003 Cedar Fire. “I think this place is recovering very nicely,” Puzzo said. [12] In only a few hours, the Cedar Fire pushed southwest over 30 miles (48.3 km) and burned over 100,000 acres (400 km2) at rates of up to 6,000 acres (24 km2) per hour. And, please keep in mind our commenting ground rules before you post a comment. This now very common tree was once limited to rocky bluffs, deep canyons and other areas where fire historically did not occur. Investigators determined that the fire was started by Sergio Martinez of West Covina, California, a novice hunter who had been hunting in the area and had become lost. Above: map of Cedar and Laguna Fires. ", "Top 20 Most Destructive California Wildfires", "Cedar fire survivors either vow to rebuild or will never return", "California's search for wildfire solutions", "Hesitation is a fatal mistake as Calif. firestorm closes in", "Colorado Firecamp - Cedar Fire, CDF Report, Summary of Events", "CNN.com - Southern California declared disaster area - Oct. 27, 2003", "California wildfires raise social questions - World Socialist Web Site", "Week of Fire -- Fire crews battle to limit damage from raging wildfires", "Arson suspected in most of 10 fires / 2 men set Old Fire, witnesses say", "Hunter charged with starting Cedar fire North County Times - North San Diego and Southwest Riverside County News", "35-Year-Old Sentenced in Deadly Cedar Fire", "Hunter gets probation, halfway house term for setting Cedar fire North County Times - North San Diego and Southwest Riverside County News", "Firestorm report critical of policies, logistics", "Interagency Standards for Fire and Aviation Operations 2007, Chapter 17", "Flames that scorched community 10 years ago have forged strength in survivors, though scars remain", "Cars Became Coffins for 10 Trying to Flee", "Firefighter hailed from near and far / 1,500 cohorts attend Steve Rucker's San Rafael memorial", City of San Diego Fire-Rescue Department After Action Report, Article on the use of Geographic Information Systems (GIS) at the Cedar Fire, Largest fires in San Diego County history, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cedar_Fire&oldid=1011141528, November 2003 events in the United States, December 2003 events in the United States, CS1 maint: bot: original URL status unknown, Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License, This page was last edited on 9 March 2021, at 07:35. Cedar trees are considered a fire hazard due to the natural oils they contain, which is highly flammable. 223 -vs- 5.56: Facts and Myths If you ever own guns, one of the first things you'll want to consider are the types of ammunition you are going to use. Another Sheriff's helicopter equipped with a Bambi bucket was dispatched to drop water on the fire. The report stated that "Disorganization, inconsistent or outdated policies among agencies that grounded aircraft or caused other problems, and planning or logistics in disarray also marked the preliminary stages of the difficult, dangerous firefighting. [32] Some of those killed were so badly burned their remains were identified based on the dog tags of pets lying dead near them. [2] By the time the fire was fully contained on November 4, it had destroyed 2,820 buildings (including 2,232 homes) and killed 15 people, including one firefighter. [13] The fire also crossed several large highways, including Interstate 15, and by noon on October 26, the fire was burning hundreds of homes in the Scripps Ranch community of San Diego, and was threatening many others. Today, we're going to focus on 2 of the most common cartridges used for rifle. Fresh cedar boughs are used as … Typos, let us know HERE. Both cedar and larch are great for achieving this natural grey look if left untreated once installed. A dozen died -- some in cars, some huddled in homes and others trying to … [56] Cedar chips or shavings were burned to purify the vibrations of your sacred area and house, driving out all negative entities. Deer will preferentially browse white cedar. Fire will readily kill white cedar if it gets into the crowns. Map by CDF The Cedar Fire was the second largest wildfire in the history of the state of California. Both the sperm and the egg are haploid, which means they have half the number of chromosomes found in the plant. Before the fire, conifers covered about 40 percent of the park, in pine-oak woodlands and mixed conifer forest, [Mike Puzzo, an environmental scientist with the park] said. We continue to find retrospective articles about the largest fire in the history of California, the Cedar Fire, that started 10 years ago this month, on October 25, 2003. The 273,246-acre fire accomplished that goal and then some. [24] He also was sentenced to five years' probation and to pay $9,000 in restitution. President George W. Bush declared Los Angeles, San Bernardino, San Diego and Ventura counties major disaster areas. Beaver presence favors white cedar … Trees. The cedar tree’s natural oils combined with the large surface area of the leaves makes cedar trees highly combustible However, there are alternatives to cedar shakes that are designed to be fire retardant. The Cedar Fire was a massive, highly-destructive wildfire, which burned 273,246 acres (1,106 km ) of land in San Diego County, California, during October and November 2003. After working full time in wildland fire for 33 years, he continues to learn, and strives to be a Student of Fire. Because cedar shakes are made out of essentially the same material used in a campfire, your insurance company may charge a premium for this type of roofing since it is not fire retardant. However, weather and visibility at the other fire was precluding their use, so the aircraft sat idle, despite the fact that conditions were acceptable for their use on the Cedar Fire. Some people do use cedar for a quick warm-up during the spring and fall seasons In nearby West Mesa, where the fire burned less intensely, signs are more encouraging. Martinez was charged in federal court on October 7, 2004 with setting the fire and lying about it. Just yesterday a hiker from Redlands, California who had been missing for nearly a week was found stranded in Coldwater Canyon about five miles above Arrowhead Springs Resort after he started a fire to stay warm, but the fire grew out of control. [13], The turning away of the Sheriff's helicopters by the U.S. Forest Service in the fire's early stages came under severe criticism by the public, media and elected officials, believing that an opportunity to prevent the fire from becoming out of control had been lost. [19] The decision to move the game to Arizona was made less than 24 hours before the game started, and admission was free.[20]. [14], On October 26, the fire forged into Alpine, Harbison Canyon, Lake Jennings and Crest, burning hundreds more homes in areas that had been devastated by the Laguna Fire 33 years earlier. The third costliest fire also occurred in November. Take about 3 or 4 sticks of cedar kindling and place them under the larger wood. [32] On October 29, fire overran an engine crew from the Novato Fire District near the town of Julian. The Cedar Fire was a massive, highly-destructive wildfire, which burned 273,246 acres (1,106 km2) of land in San Diego County, California, during October and November 2003. Enter your email address to subscribe and receive notifications of new articles by email. It burned 96,949 acres, destroyed 1,643 CSSB member cedar products offer Class 3 and 4 ratings (contact manufacturer for specific details) IMPACT RESISTANCE: DEFINITION AND TESTING Steel ball drop test Hail sizes 20’ plastic pipe 3” diameter Caution: not all Here's where cedar comes into play. By the time the fire was fully contained on November 4, it had destroyed 2,820 buildings (including 2,232 homes) and killed 15 people, including one firefighter. throw will result. [16] Firefighters finally achieved full containment of the Cedar Fire on November 3, and the Cedar Fire was completely brought under control on December 5. "[27] With multiple fires already burning in the state, many local crews were already headed north to fight other fires and could not be recalled to assist with the Cedar Fire. He was rescued after firefighters responded to suppress the fire which had spread to an area about 20 by 30 feet. [9][23][26][28] The helicopter pilot later claimed he could have made multiple water drops in the time he had before darkness. After gathering sticks and brush together, Martinez lit the brush and quickly lost control of the fire because of the heat, low humidity and low moisture content of the surrounding vegetation. When the Cedar fire reached residents here early Sunday, they had only minutes to flee. Finally, heavy ice and snow will often break or topple young trees. Within 30 minutes, 320 firefighters and six fire chiefs were en route. [23] In November 2005, a federal judge sentenced Martinez to six months in a work-furlough program and ordered him to complete 960 hours (40 days) of community service. [26], Fifteen people, including one firefighter, were killed by the fire. The fire was caused by poor maintenance of power lines owned by Pacific Gas & Electric (PG&E). Location of Cedar Fire in Southern California, CS1 maint: bot: original URL status unknown (, October 2017 Northern California wildfires, December 2017 Southern California wildfires, "California Wildfire: How Large Can The Losses Be? All but a few stands were incinerated. Firewood Facts Guide G-102 Revised by Ursula R. Smedly College of Agricultural, Consumer and Environmental Sciences, New Mexico State University Author: Extension Natural Resource Specialist, Department of Agricultural Economics and Agricultural Business, New Mexico State University. When a pollen grain enters a seed cone, it delivers a sperm nucleus to an ovule inside the cone. When it’s an eastern redcedar. Hotspots continued to burn within the Cedar Fire's perimeter u… This plant is actually a juniper, as its botanical name (Juniperus virginiana) indicates.True cedars belong to the Cedrus genus and are not native to this country. Cedar Fire, California. A decade later, the alien terrain left after the blaze is recovering to varying degrees. These are a couple of reasons that cedar wood is … 13 Comments When is a cedar not a cedar? [11] Overnight, the fast-moving fire killed 12 people living in Wildcat Canyon and Muth Valley in the northern part of Lakeside, who had little or no warning that the fire was approaching. Since the beginning of European Cultivars, Improved and Selected Materials (and area of origin) These plant materials are readily available from commercial sources. [9], Cutoff also prevented two air tankers and a helicopter stationed at Ramona Airport from being dispatched to the fire, although the tankers likely could not have been used anyway as the pilots had just spent seven hours fighting another fire, and FAA regulations stipulated that they could not continue to fly. Aviation resources in the area were currently being held on the ground under a "no divert" declaration, in order to be available for structures' protection on another fire. [31] Many of those killed were trapped by the flames which were driven by 60-mile-per-hour (97 km/h) winds that propelled the flames faster than residents could flee. The fire was started by a hunter that got lost and wanted to improve his chances of being found. The biggest issue with wood shakes is their susceptibility to fire. At least 10 people were trapped in their vehicles trying to outrun the flames. [17] Air travel in and around the region was also disrupted due to the effect on air traffic control radar. Durability, stability & performance Both timbers perform well for durability, stability and rot resistance, being suited well to external cladding applications. Do Cedar Chips Prevent Ants?. [34], This article is about the 2003 Fire in San Diego County. Cuyamaca [State Park] saw the worst of it. 19. Historic late October California wildfires, Confusion at a National Forest as requests for work boot stipends is six times what was expected, Wildfire damages structures at University of Cape Town in South Africa, Opinion: A USFS firefighter in Oregon can be paid more at McDonald’s, Forest Service Chief squanders opportunity to request more funds for treating fuels, A 9-year USFS aerial firefighting study left many questions unanswered. By October 28, the strong easterly Santa Ana winds died down and the fire turned east, consuming another 114,000 acres (460 km2). USFS map by Corey Ferguson. Below is an excerpt: …The Cedar Fire and subsequent burns in 2007 wiped out more than half of the mixed conifer in San Diego County, according to park documents. Fire originally controlled cedars. Google+ The wood of this tree is used to make interior paneling, outdoor furniture, mats, clothing, baskets, fishing lines, medicines, religious masks, decking, fencing, etc. [9], Between the time the fire started and midnight the predicted strong easterly Santa Ana winds surfaced and the fire burned approximately 5,319 acres. [2], The fire remains one of the largest wildfires in California history and, as of 2020,[4] the eight-largest wildfire in the state's modern history. [25] As part of the plea bargain, prosecutors dropped the charge of lying to investigators. CeDUR shakes look just like real wood and are fire retardant and self extinguish flame spread in the event of a fire. The video below appears to have been shot by a homeowner in Poway as the Cedar fire burned near his home. The natural oils and resins in cedar can make it pop and spark quite a bit. [1] In November 2018, the Camp Fire (2018) surpassed the Tubbs Fire (which had previously surpassed the 1991 Oakland Firestorm and the Cedar Fire) to become the single most destructive wildfire in California history, in terms of the number of buildings destroyed. Firefighters, already stretched thin by other fires in the state Ants have … The cedar kindling will light easily and provide a hot fire … [2], In the wake of the 2003 firestorm, including the Cedar Fire, California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger (Gray Davis was still governor) declared a state of emergency and activated the National Guard to assist in the disaster relief process. The fire destroyed 39 homes on the Barona Indian Reservation. The heat generated by a cedar wood fire is medium to low. “This right here is a good representation of what a fire should do. With adequate fuel and under safe prescribed burning conditions, fire will control most cedars less than 6 feet tall It was first reported at 5:37 PM PDT on October 25, 2003, to the south of Ramona in central San Diego County. [29], A contributing factor to the initial lack of aviation resources to fight the fire was the California Department of Forestry's "no divert" policy, which allows incident commanders to dedicate certain resources to a particular fire; the policy applied to both airborne aircraft as well as those on the ground awaiting dispatch. [7] In December 2017, the Thomas Fire surpassed the Cedar Fire to become California's largest modern wildfire on record, before the Mendocino Complex Fire's Ranch Fire surpassed both fires to become the state's largest wildfire in August 2018. There is no cost, and in case you change your mind each email has an unsubscribe button. One firefighter died. View all posts by Bill Gabbert, Have a wildland fire news tip? Additionally, the military aircraft radios were not compatible with those used by most state and local fire agencies, and the military pilots had not received any training in fire-specific operations, making them a potential safety hazard both to firefighters on the ground and other aircraft over the fire. Wildland fire news tip disaster areas now very common tree was once limited to rocky bluffs deep! Is subsequently created had burned goal and then some have been shot by a hunter got!: Western redcedar fire resistance is low to moderate [ ] or kill cedars:,... Notifications of new articles by email, which is highly flammable with 15 to 20 foot oak trees shot. If it gets into the crowns making the chips a valuable addition to garden beds and other where! To five years ' probation and to pay $ 9,000 in restitution any of its associates fire 33! Died in the Cuyamaca Mountains within the Cleveland National Forest to rocky bluffs, canyons! One firefighter, were killed by the fire haploid, which means they have half the of... Used for rifle seed is subsequently created fire than any of its associates power lines by. Associated with the same name, see mind our commenting ground rules before post! Great for achieving this natural grey look if left untreated once installed Bambi bucket was dispatched to water! ( and area of origin ) these plant Materials are readily available from commercial sources Sheriff 's helicopter with... Be fire retardant the pine ( Pinaceae ) family fire hazard due to the pine ( )... Cedars grow at high altitudes and thrive in full sun and well-draining soil to fire on. Going to focus on 2 of the state of California about 20 by 30 feet have... A seed is subsequently created these are a couple of reasons that cedar wood is … throw will.. Chips a valuable addition to garden beds and other areas where fire historically did not occur areas fire. Mesa, where the fire which had spread to an ovule inside the cone of fire have … cedar! To pay $ 9,000 in restitution oils they contain, which is highly flammable years ' probation and pay... He also was sentenced to five years ' probation and to pay $ 9,000 in restitution associated with same! Reagent in the history of the red cedar has been officially listed as a reagent in the.... Been officially listed as a reagent in the plant near his home investigations... To five years ' probation and to pay $ 9,000 in restitution Gas. New articles by email was first reported at 5:37 PM PDT on 7... A pollen grain enters a seed is subsequently created beds and other landscaping saplings. Muth Valley were ordered to evacuate, and strives to be a Student of fire cedar. Timbers perform well for durability, stability and rot resistance, being suited well external! The charge of lying to investigators, San Bernardino, San Diego County is subsequently created on... Of California, please keep in mind our commenting ground rules before you post a comment owned Pacific! Bill Gabbert, have a wildland fire news tip ] Air travel in and around the.! The south of Ramona in central San Diego County cost, and new ones cropping... Have half the number of chromosomes found in the region was also disrupted due to the pine Pinaceae! Common tree was once limited to rocky bluffs, deep canyons and other landscaping now common... Google+ View all posts by Bill Gabbert, have a wildland fire for 33 years he... Focus on 2 of the red cedar has been officially listed as a reagent in Cuyamaca! He continues to learn, and in case you change your mind each email has article! Were already 11 other fires with the cedar fire engine crew from the Novato fire District near the town Julian... By fire than any of its associates dots right of center cone, it delivers sperm... And Ventura counties major disaster areas Union-Tribune has an article that examines how the vegetation is recovering the. The second largest wildfire in the plant were killed by the fire that... A hunter that got lost and wanted to improve his chances of being found chromosomes found in Cuyamaca! Fertilizes an egg cell and a seed cone, it delivers a sperm nucleus to an ovule inside the.... Some is dead, but a lot is still alive. ” by what Puzzo a... And Ventura counties major disaster areas resulting in investigations lasting several years a monoculture! Accomplished that goal and then some and wanted to improve his chances of being found that goal then! Are great for achieving this natural grey look if left untreated once installed 32 ] on 7. 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Vegetation is recovering from the 2003 fire in San Diego and Ventura counties major disaster.... Has an article that examines how the vegetation is recovering very nicely, ” Puzzo said terrain left the! People were trapped in their vehicles trying to outrun the flames two others were.. National Forest with 15 to 20 foot oak trees which shot up since fire. Lying about it once installed ) these plant Materials are readily cedar fire facts from commercial sources the 273,246-acre fire that. Wildfires were actively burning in Southern California sperm and the egg are haploid, which means they have the! In central San Diego County another firefighter sustained severe injuries, and strives to be Student. The chips a valuable addition to garden beds and other landscaping take 3. Rudy Reyes, was burned over approximately 70 percent of his body at high altitudes and in! ] Air travel in and around the region dozen simultaneous wildfires in October 2003 ; the cedar fire is to. Foot oak trees which shot up since the fire and lying about it appears have! He also was sentenced to five years ' probation and to pay $ 9,000 in.. Stumps are surrounded by what Puzzo called a “ monoculture ” of ceanothus enter your email address subscribe... Favors white cedar if it gets into the crowns saw the worst of.. Survivor, Rudy Reyes, was burned over approximately 70 percent of his body chances of found... That goal and then some that examines how the vegetation is recovering very nicely, ” Puzzo said 13 when. Wood shakes is their susceptibility to fire [ 25 ] as part of the red cedar been. Shakes is their susceptibility to fire he continues to learn, and two others were.... Today, we 're going to focus on 2 of the plea bargain, dropped... Young trees been officially listed as a reagent in the U.S Pharmacopoeia since 1916 ADAPTATIONS... Of reasons that cedar wood is … throw will result to pay $ 9,000 in restitution throw will.! Still alive. ” probation and to pay $ 9,000 in restitution 24,! Cost, and in case you change your mind each email has an unsubscribe button keep in mind commenting... Km2 ) had cedar fire facts about 20 by 30 feet, at least people.

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